Avoiding the Pitfalls of Charismania & Cessationism: Gifts of the Holy Spirit | PD w/ Brent Avery

Many people have said that the law of God is for the twelve tribes and not for, not for anyone else. It's for the native warren alone. And. But now, today, what we're saying is the spirit and the spiritual gifts are for the twelve disciples or apostles and not for us. So we're doing the exact same thing to the Holy Spirit that people have done to the truth that were handed down on Mount Sinai to us.

It's so embedded in us from our childhood. You can be anything. You can have everything. It's all about you. But until we allow ourselves to be confronted with that narcissism, with that self centeredness, that selfish appetite, with the fact that, you know, having to look back at things that you thought you were doing, the glory of God, and really it was all about you. The problem is we spend more time pressing against sin than pressing into the Holy Spirit. I don't ever have to convince a believer that Satan's power isn't real and that he's not continually after them.

Right?

The tragedy is I have to convince christians that God's power is still pursuing them and is still active.

In the first century, God did something incredible. As the messiah came and made atonement for all of Israel and the rest of the world, he gave a holy spirit. And as the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the disciples, and also all who were there in the room and tongues of fire landed upon them, from there on out, the world began to change. We see that demons are cast out, the sick is healed, words of knowledge and prophecy, and all of these and more goes forth from the people of God. In fact, this is in accordance to what we should expect, because Peter said in acts chapter two, the prophet Joel prophesied about this day coming in the last days, whereby God will pour out his spirit, sons, daughters, old, young, all will receive his spirit, and the Holy Spirit will work by them through miraculous gifts. And the world changed, brothers and sisters, that's why perhaps even you right now are listening to this as a believer. But yet at the same time, we see that there were, as the light of God came forth, other things got attracted to it. It's as if Satan wanted to cause confusion. We see instances like Simon the sorcerer, a man with his own agenda, coming in to try and buy his way towards the Holy Spirit, being rebuked for it. And what if, in the same way today, as God is trying to pour out his spirit and move through his people, that the enemy also wants to deceive, cause confusion through SIMON the sorcerers of this day as well? And has that not caused false perceptions? Has that not caused confusions about who the Holy Spirit is and what he wants to do and what it looks like and what it doesn't look like? Today, I'm excited because this is what we're going to talk about. And what does it authentically look like to be used by the father? He wants to use you. And so for me to get to the bottom of this, I'm inviting a dear friend. Brother on Pastor Bran Avery. Pastor Brain, thank you so much for joining me here tonight. Perhaps you can just start with us, just sharing a testimony, sharing us something good that you've seen the Father do in the Holy Spirit just so we can get a taste of what we're going to get into tonight.

Sure. Well, I think that obviously I should start a little bit with my own background so that the listeners and viewers understand that I'm not coming from a hyper charismatic or charismatic background at all. I grew up in the independent christian church movement, so I came at it from a very skeptical background. Years later, after I resigned from a ministry in Indiana, the Holy Spirit started doing things in my life, albeit without my permission or advance notice, that he was going to violate my theology right and left about things that I thought he didn't do anymore. He didn't ask my permission to speak. And that was probably one of the first and most radical things that I experienced with him was the direct internal audible voice where the Holy Spirit actually says something to you. And I know that early on, years ago, I mean, that used to throw my independent christian church friends into all sorts of panic. Oh, are we supposed to write this down at the end of the book? No, those aren't those types of revelations. That's not what those are. But as time progressed, I began to realize, well, I don't know. I'm not really here to check anybody's boxes. I'm not here to check, you know, what one group, one denomination says is charismatic versus what another? I want to know what the Bible says. And the Lord has been very gracious to give me some fairly amazing experiences with the Holy Spirit. And I guess the one that I would begin with if there was any possibility of me remaining in the cessationist camp, the camp that doesn't believe the Holy Spirit still moves. This one kind of blew it out of the water. And it was only a few years ago I was in Kansas City, and when I got there, I had this experience where I had kind of brought a little notebook with some things that I thought I might want to talk to the Lord about. But as soon as I sat down and just kind of settled, my spirit kind of prepared, I just instantly felt like the Holy Spirit was like, no, don't do that. And so I just put the little notebook down my side, and I said, lord, what do you want to talk to me about? And I opened up. I opened up my scripture, and I opened up to Paul's prayer for the Ephesians, and I just wanna read it from chapter one, verse 17. It says that the God of the Lord Jesus Christ, the father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened so that you will know what is the hope of his calling, what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance and the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe. And he goes on and ultimately wraps up with that. The power that is manifesting in the life of the believer is the same power that manifested in the life of Christ to raise him from the dead. But I really, as soon as I read especially verse 17 and verse 18, I was kind of in a dry spell. I was in a period where I was like, well, lord, you've done some amazing things for me, in me, through me. You've helped me understand some things in scripture, but we all go through dry spells. And I began to pray, well, lord, are you done with me? Cause sometimes you go through those periods and you're wondering, well, lord, what's going on? And so I kind of condensed and consolidated my prayer simply to lord is ephesians 118 for me. And that's what I began to pray. And PD, I can only ask your viewers and listeners just to understand, I'm a man of my word. I did not pray this out loud. There was nobody near me. I got up, I began to pace, I began to pray in my heart and in my mind to the Lord. I wasn't saying lord. I wasn't walking up the aisles. Lord, is Ephesians 118 for me. Now, in my heart and my mind, I was crying out to the Lord on that. And this went on for about an hour. I'd sit for a while. I'd walk, worship. And I just kept coming back to that phrase, is ephesians 118 for me. I usually sit in the aisle seat. I'm a little claustrophobic. I don't like people, you know? But for some reason, when I went back to the row where my stuff was at, rather than sitting down in that aisle seat, I sat one seat further in. And all I can say is, it must have been providence, because I had no other reason for doing it. And shortly after being seated, a young lady came, and she put her hand on my shoulder, my left shoulder, and she kind of sat in. Into that empty seat in the aisle, and she said, I believe I have a word from the Lord for you. I know I'm not supposed to do this in here, but I believe I have a word from the Lord for you. Will you receive it? And I said, well, sure. And she looked at me and she said, I believe the Lord, the Holy Spirit, is telling me to tell you that ephesians 118 is for you.

Wow.

Now, what do you do with that?

How could that be explained?

Yeah. Then she asked me the question, does that mean anything to you? And I'm hoping that maybe she'll see this someday, and I need to ask her forgiveness, because I was so got at that moment, you know, wanting to laugh, wanting to cry, wanting to just, like, fall on the floor.

Doesn't know what to do with it.

I was like, oh, yeah. So I didn't really tell her, you know, how significant it actually was. And I feel bad about that to this day, because, I mean, if you're going to get a word from the Lord, it doesn't get much more spot on than that. And so that has been such an encouragement to me, and why I just can't go back to a belief that the Holy Spirit, you know, we have a book, and we're supposed to do the best we can and hope it works out for us.

Yeah. You know, and that's. That's a really profound point where you were so astounded at the accuracy of the word that you didn't know what to do. And I think that's sometimes what happens, even when people should listen to this and take notice, because sometimes when we're so spot on with giving someone a word, they may be so shocked that they don't let you know about how spot on it truly was. I remember one day I gave a man a word. He was just a stranger walking along a beach, and he's walking with his wife, and I just stopped him. I just felt father saying, I need to tell him that he's. He's got a crossroads with a business idea, and he needs to go for it. And it's just a random word, and I. And I just give it to him. Hey, I don't know if this means anything to you, but I believe the father's saying this, and he's. He's just. He's got that kind of reaction of just. This is strange. And he. And he walks. He says, thank you, and walks. And his wife turns around and like. And motions to me. Yes, yes, you got it. That was right. But, you know, it's that like, he himself was so. He's so shocked. How could that be? That he even forgets to make, you know, so. Yeah, I just thought that was precious.

It's a very limited verbiage. Ephesians 118 is for you. That's what I've been praying. There's an old saying, there's no atheist in foxholes, right? I mean, if you're in a foxhole, you suddenly find God and there's pure cessationism. I don't think even exist, because you go into the cessationist camp and someone tells you you've got cancer, you're calling people to pray. All right? I mean, don't tell me you're not. You suddenly don't want God to. You know, the thing is that cessationists aren't. They're not opposed to God's holy spirit moving. They just want him to do it when no one's looking for whatever reason.

Right. He should do it independently of men. He's not allowed to do it through men either.

Right. And that's. So I had already moved away from that because of just the. To deny that what the Holy Spirit was doing in my life, it would be just to deny my own testimony, not just because of one or two things, but just literally since I was a teenager.

Right? And that moment when you ask God for, you know, as ephesians for me, you know, just prior to that, you were asking the Lord to speak to you. So there was a similar request that you had to the Lord that Samuel had. For example, you remember, he was told by Eli to go, and here I am, Lord, speak. You know, that positioning of ourselves to hear is so important biblically. And perhaps if we're talking about cessationism, which is the belief for anyone who doesn't know that God does not move in supernatural spiritual gifts through people, like the gift of healing, speaking in tongues, prophetic gifts, words of knowledge and so on. In those camps, if you don't believe that those things can happen through people or to you, then you're not going to position yourself to the Holy Spirit in a way where he can use you. Because the pattern of scripture is, here I am, Lord, send me, here I am, Lord, speak to me. Here I am, Lord. Now, God can do it regardless. He has done that and he does it all the time. But we see the pattern as he wants us to incline ourselves to him. Brent, can you speak a little bit with us about the body of Christ right now? Do you believe that the body of Christ, just speaking generally as a whole, are they walking in their spiritual gifts to the degree that scripture is calling?

Sadly, I would have to say no. Now, we have to qualify that. That. You know, I'm talking about the american church. And one of the things that, one of the things that many, I would go so far as to say most, and I include myself in this, that most christians in America suffer from a selfishness that is become so culturally, we are so just, it's so embedded in us from our childhood. You can be anything. You can have everything. You can. It's all about you. That even though we are raised in the church, I wasn't raised to be selfish. But, boy, there's a revelatory moment when you begin to realize just how selfish you are. The first one is when you get married. And then you find out right away, oh, wait, I have to share the remote control. But other things along the way, you just be. It's a selfishness that is so culturalized in us that we don't even realize it exists. And even, and I want to get to this. Eventually we start talking about righteousness. Even we get to the definition of what righteousness really is. And the opposite, the opposite of righteousness is selfishness. So righteousness is selflessness. And I think one of the reasons we're not, you know, to answer your question, that we're not operating the gifts of Holy Spirit, is because we have not, and we will not confront the selfishness that exists within our flesh, because we live in a culture that says from the time we're born, it's all about you, you know? And so we frame everything like that.

Has, that affects so much. Not even just the topic at hand today. I mean, because what we're, what you're really talking about right now is the cross where Yeshua says, whoever wants to be my disciple, he needs to go and pick up his cross and follow me. That by definition is death to your own fulfillments, your own happiness. Would you think. Would you think me, me, me, me killing that old man, being raised with Christ into his nature, what he wants, what he calls, whatever that is, whether I like it or not. And that reality affects, just like you mentioned, marriage, it affects our marriages, it affects our relationship with our kids. It affects our relationship with one another and the body. It affects everything. And now it affects our ability to be used by the Holy Spirit, which is a huge deal, because now that affects our spiritual life with the Father, our relationship with the Father.

And it's a very dangerous place for us to be as a people. Because for one thing, let me just frame it like this. My expectation of what a Christian, what a believer should expect in regard to the Holy Spirit right now is not less than, it's greater than. And the reason for that is Paul gives what I just consider to be a kind of a spiritual law of nature, if you will. In Romans 520, where he says he's trying to explain that God knew very well that the giving of the law would end up increasing iniquity and sinfulness. You know, wait a minute. Why would he do that? Because of what he says in that verse. But where sin increases, grace increases all the more, exponentially more. Because if God were to allow sin to increase, I mean, sin is increasing exponentially all the time. If God doesn't have an answer or solution to that, it's going to be really hard to convince the world that following him is better than following the world. So why did, why does he do that? One, he only allows that sinfulness and all of its tentacles of hurt and pain and the things that it causes, he only allows that because the grace he has to respond to it is so exponentially greater than what it is. And grace, the way the apostle Paul uses it, isn't just the favor of God in the sense of for salvation. It's also used for the favor of God, for the empowerment of the body of Christ. That's where the word charismata, gifts of grace, empowering gifts of grace, that's where it comes from. They're grace gifts. And grace is the greatest gift that he's given us, the church, so much, we tend to focus on grace so much in the context of that unmerited favor for salvation. But then don't really focus it on what about that unbelievable, unbridled power, grace for living our lives, because we still have to live the rest of our lives, however that long it may be, we still have to live our lives in this fallen body of flesh that it's me, me, me, my, my, my. You know, you don't have to teach a two year old to be selfish. How is it that when a two year old, they get to two and suddenly they know three words? Me, my, mine, right? I mean, it's ingrained in us. And yet the Holy Spirit comes in and gives us an appetite for something greater. And so for me, as I see the american culture getting more and more aggressive against us, more and more sinful, this isn't a season for people to be discouraged and giving up. This is, well, the Holy Spirit doesn't. If only the Holy Spirit did these things. No, the Holy Spirit still does these things, but we're too busy being focused on our pity party about all the people that don't like us instead of turning to God, who has grace gifted us. And I think that's why we don't operate in that. But I think one of the benefits of suffering and persecution is you finally wake up and go, there's got to be more, right?

Right. And I think that's kind of what's slowly starting to happen more and more, and it will probably continue to happen. But perhaps the effect of this selfish nature that we're talking about is one, I see one of two things. Other number one, people are too self driven. And in other words, they care about what the world thinks and how others perceive them more than anything else and the call of God in their lives. And so they don't become, because, you know, the gifts of the spirit, you need to put yourself out there. You need to go up to someone and lay hands on them. You need to give them a word of knowledge like that lady gave you. These are vulnerable positions that we place our own reputation in, and that's why we don't like it. Our flesh hates it. So either we, the selfishness within us causes us to flee the call of God in that gift, whatever that is, for you, or, number two, we actually, we enter the gift, and then we operate in the gift with that selfish nature. And I think that's what we see a lot, and that's what's hurt so many people. You know, when we talk about the abuses, the. This. The strangeness that people have witnessed in some of these spirit led movements, as it may be known, perhaps those who have been the drivers of that have made the gift about them, and they have without, and I think sometimes with good intention, but nonetheless, they have operated in the gift and they have used it for their own profit instead of ultimately building God's kingdom. Do you think that that can be the case? And what do we tell people who've been hurt by such situations?

Well, first thing I would say is, ask him, who led you to Jesus? And then I would remind them, I don't care who that person was. That person probably also hurt you at some point. Parent friend, you know, didn't. I mean, because the good news about God's grace is he doesn't sit around waiting for perfect people to minister it, right? I mean, if it wasn't that young lady, as wonderful as she was, if I had. She's not a perfect human being. She's let people down before, you know? And so, yeah, you have been hurt by people who abused grace, but you've also been blessed by wounded people who blessed you with grace. You know, I mean, it just. And by the way, I mean, if you want the Lord to use you, you're also going to have to accept your own fallibility, your own failings, your own failures, and you're gonna have to own up to those. You have to live in those. The reality that. I mean, I just. I think so much about David, you know, having to get up the next day and still be king, you know, after some of his moments, you know, and you're like, uh. But the fact that God continues to use him, you know, the.

It's not black and white. It's not as black and white as we want it to be. Right.

And what you were saying, too, is the, the path to that harm comes when people. If. Let me define righteousness. If you go to the sermon on the mount where Jesus tells us, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, righteousness, the way I grew up hearing it was, hey, Brandt, you need to be a better person. You need to pursue moral perfection. Now, that can be an act of righteousness because I'm giving my body how I use my body over to the Lord's will. But the problem is that's almost because that's such a driving factor in our flesh that it becomes like the overwhelming thing we think God wants us to present to him. And I'm not saying that it's. That it's not an important thing. The problem is we spend more time pressing against sin than pressing into the holy spirit. And so we get, there's no joy in pressing against sin. And I'm not saying you don't have to make choices and decisions, but there's no victory there because the Bible says the battle belongs to the Lord. So the more you're turned and facing your battle, the less you're allowing the Lord to engage. For you. The biblical definition of righteousness, which is selflessness, which is basically every form of righteousness, has some aspect of giving. That's why I can't be a cessationist, if you ask me, has God stopped giving the Holy Spirit. No, because God is righteous. And every manifestation of righteousness has an aspect of giving. Giving charity is the primary one. Giving grace, giving encouragement for giving is an act of giving. You're giving something in that, that act of forgiveness. So once I know that righteousness is giving as I have received, then my life, it's more fun to go, hey, I want to go do righteousness today. Because who hasn't enjoyed that moment of giving a gift and watching someone receive it? Isn't that way more encouraging and empowering than, okay, Lord, today I'm just going to try to wrestle with this flesh all day long. Listen, when you're out there doing righteousness, you don't have time for the flesh, you know, and so the people who. But so that being said, if you turn the gifting into something about you, you are fundamentally using the gift for 180 degrees opposite of why God gave it in the first place. So if you start, you know, whether it's a healing ministry or word of knowledge, if your ultimate goal is that you're going to be recognized as that person, you know, one of the things, I look back and I hadn't really thought about it much until you said that earlier, brought it up earlier. But that young lady took a risk because she knew that, you know, hey, I'm going to do something that's just, we don't normally do this. And I don't think she was intending to be rebellious to the leadership or anything. I think she was overdeveloped, powered by the Lord, and said, no, you got to go tell him this right now. But when we start making these things about us, suddenly we're trying to use the gifts of the spirit, which are manifestations of righteousness, and we're trying to use them as manifestations of selfishness, and it doesn't work. And when that happens, people, amen.

Absolutely.

And that is the weird thing about that is that doesn't mean the selfish person may not still feel function in that gift.

Right.

And that kind of gets crazy in our head, like, well, God, why would you want to do that? Well, first of all, he was, it was never about validating that person as the superior spiritual go to in your life anyway, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a big deal. A lot of people, and that's why the whole black and white thing that I quickly mentioned earlier, I think it happens a lot. Wherever people are quick to say all of that is a Kundalini spirit behind it, or this person is driven by that. This person is driven by that. Okay. Now, sure. Okay. There's. There are. There are bad stuff out there. There's good stuff out there, like, there. We're not. Of course there's discernment that's needed. But God can still use people, like you said, brent, who aren't perfect. And the Holy Spirit indwells and uses people who aren't perfect. Because if he. If he did not, then he wouldn't be using me. He wouldn't be using you or anyone who's going to be listening to this. Thankfully. In fact, I think it's part of why the Spirit could be given by nature. Because before the outpouring of the Spirit, as we see in acts two, the Holy Spirit comes upon certain men in the ways that we then later see him come upon his people as a whole. And it seems like it's to do with the sacrifice of Christ. It seems like it's because Yeshua said, it's good that I'm going. I'm dying. I'm resurrecting. I make atonement for you. It's good that I'm going. So the spirit can come. So there's something about his atonement for us and the spirit being able to come upon us. So it's from my perspective, I believe it's that he cleanses us, he cleanses our temples, makes us white as snow, and suddenly the Holy Spirit can baptize us and use us. But that, of course, doesn't mean that we don't have the battle with the flesh still, which we do, but he uses us despite that. And so I think, you know, a lot of people are like, well, that guy doesn't have my theology. He doesn't believe like me. So the fact that he casts out a demon that can't be the Holy Spirit, well, you know, watch out for that, because that's exactly what the Pharisees thought. Certain Pharisees thought about Yeshua when he was doing that. He doesn't believe the way I do. But he's causing all demons. How could it be? Compeed.

Well, think how selfish that position actually is. What you're saying is that God's not allowed to free somebody from demon possession or physical aim or whatever, unless he has your approval. The person that's involved in that moment in ministry. So at that moment, your opinion, your doctrine, your theology, your comfort zone of understanding how it works, is more important to you than that woman, that man that just got freed from a demon. Now I get it. I wish that God would use everybody that agrees with my theology and my approach because that would be very comfortable for me. It's also a very selfish position. You know, there was a senior pastor of a church, large church in our movement of churches, who said something about worship one day, and I've never forgotten. He said, you know, if I walk out of a worship service and I like everything someone got left out, I can't possibly be the bar of the perfect tempo, the perfect pitch, the perfect songs, you know? And it's like, I can't possibly be the bar of how God is and is not allowed to work in somebody else's life. And if he has to use an imperfect man or woman in that moment for the sake of that person, because he's doing righteousness to that wounded person, you know, I mean, Paul says something and goes on and talks about how there are actually people out there who are profiting off the gospel. I mean, this is nothing new under the sun. It's already happening in the late first century. And so he. But then he makes this add on statement. He says, but what matters is that people are hearing the gospel. And I'm like, wait a minute. You mean God can use hucksters?

Yeah.

Now he. Jesus makes it clear he doesn't have to accept hucksters in the kingdom. Depart from me. I never knew you, but we did all these things. Yeah, but you did them for you, and you got what you wanted. You got your reward. But that doesn't mean that he. You know, it gets complicated for us emotionally and mentally because we want everything so black and white and so clean cut. But, you know, how is it that a man can one week be venerated in a pulpit by thousands in the next week? Beverly caught in scandal. But the week before, he preached a message that transformed someone's life because of the grace of God, because of the righteousness of God, doesn't sit around waiting to use perfect people. And I do want to go back to something else that you said, too, about being in a place where we're pursuing it. When I was doing a series on the kingdom, sermon on the kingdom, or sermon on the mount at the end of the beatitudes, Jesus says, blessed are you when you're persecuted. And that word persecute in the Greek actually means pursued. Someone is pursuing to overtake you, all right? They've got an agenda to come get you. That's the same word that Paul uses in one corinthians 14 one. To talk to us about how we should earnestly desire or pursue the gifts of the Holy Spirit. If you ask the average believer, a messianic Christian, doesn't matter what flavor they are, would you see yourself as pursuing what he has called you to pursue the way the enemy is pursuing you? Because none of us are going to deny the enemies after us. Right. I mean, one of the things I said in that series is I don't ever have to convince a believer that Satan's power isn't real and that he's not continually after them.

Right.

The tragedy is I have to convince christians that God's power is still pursuing them and is still active. I don't have to convince them that Satan's coming out from, they are 100% convinced of that. But then you have to turn around and say, oh, but by the way, God, who is better invest in. Yeah, yeah. You know, but that's great.

And it was a good point for me. It's fascinating how we, you know, even the, the cessationists of cessationists, they would say, you know, there's, Satan can do stuff. There's sorcery, there's witchcraft, you know, there's, there's all these things that we need to watch out for. And there is, obviously, they recognize there's power to a degree. You know, for example, Pharaoh and his magicians, you know, approaching roses with the snakes and all that. But then we talk about God and the ability for God to have power through people, like he did through Moses in that moment or through people today, then it's red flags. But Satan can do stuff. Like at the end of days, the Antichrist is going to do stuff. He's going to deceive many, but God cannot do anything.

Yeah, we're supposed to face, we're supposed to face the worst season in human existence with less than. Yeah, because if that's the case, he shouldn't plan on finding anybody a faith here. I mean, let's be, let's be honest. If that's the plan, you, the generation that has to face the worst gets the least. That's a recipe for disaster.

Yeah. And that makes no sense.

That's why I think that I'm not, I'm not looking for anything that I saw on tv in the eighties. I'm looking for, for stuff that cannot be denied, you know? And of course, I do realize they will deny it because, I mean, jesus. But anyway, I'm just not trying to fit anybody's.

Yeah, but even Moses in his day, despite all of the things we look at the story with, wonder at what God did through him, and yet Moses says, oh, how I wish that God would speak through all his people, would prophesy through all his people. And so of course, that's what Joel's would happen in the last days. And that happened in 2000 years ago in the last days, and we're still there. We're more last days than ever. And yet now it's supposed to vanish just as we're at the cusp of his return. Makes total sense. Hey guys, just a short pause before I get back to the discussion with Brent. I want to remind you that all of the teachings on rising far are made possible by your generosity through the grace of Goddesse. And so if the Holy Spirit is laying it upon your heart to become a partner of this ministry to support us, you can find out more by going to riseonfire.com partner for any gifts. Thank you so much. This is all made available freely for all through your support. Also, I would like to remind you of our trumpets online conference coming up next week, October 2, 2024 at 07:30 p.m. text feast to 9400 to get reminded of that event. Let's get back to the discussion. If I'm in the audience right now, I'm asking you, so why should I really care? Okay, you're talking about, you know, we talked about righteousness, being selfless, all of this. This is all good. Why should I care about, say, the gifts, you know? And by the way, for anyone listening, we're talking about the gift of healing. We're talking about the words of knowledge, the gift of prophecy, speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of spirits. Why should I want to pursue these?

Well, when Jesus used the phrase the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of heaven, he said that there will be some who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven and some who will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. And I don't want to be called least, and I'm pretty sure that those who are called least are the people who were. It's. I guess they had enough faith to be saved. I mean, they were believers, but they never really saw their lives as being an extension of the ministry of Christ. Their life is just their life. They go through their life and they do their thing and they, they don't see their life as, you know, being on mission with God. And I would say to those people, if you want, you have to want it. I mean, Jesus said, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteous and all these other earthly housing, food needs, clothes, all that will be taken care of. But you seek Makut hashemaim. You seek the kingdom of heaven. And what is that? The kingdom of heaven is that Jesus brought all the power, all the manifestation of heaven, as near to us as he could, so that we could empower or be empowered by it, we could experience it, we could connect with it, and not just so that we could see it once in a time in the ancient world, but so that we would be invited to participate in that. And so my question is, why aren't we pursuing the kingdom? Why wouldn't we want to? And there's only one reason, and you hit it. I love what you said. In order to pursue the kingdom of heaven and his righteousness, you have to be willing to be vulnerable. Because at some point in time, I don't care what, which of the nine gifts it is, your mouth is going to have to open and you're going to have to say something. I don't care what gift it is, healing, whatever it is, you're going to have to be in a vulnerable, risky place to function in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And most people just don't want to do that.

Yeah. And if I may add something to what you just said, is that I think we are so we love studying, we love growing in knowledge of him and his word. And that's. That's very good. You know, I think that's a gift to love his word, but not at the cost of doing his word. And so, you know, we love to talk about, we need to study the law of God or we need to keep the law of God. Okay, cool. But what about the kingdom of God that Yeshua brought upon earth? Because Jesus said, the kingdom is not here or there, but it's within you. So he's talking about something he's doing within us, through us, and that's by the spirit. He told his disciples to go into the world, proclaim the gospel. He told them to go and heal the sick, cast out demons. We see that also, by the way, not just happen with his twelve, because I can already hear some people say, because, you know, we see in acts two in the last days, he poured our spirit upon all people. Talks about dreams, visions, prophecy. We see, like you mentioned in one corinthians 14, he says, earnestly, desire the spiritual gifts, especially you might prophesize. He says that to the church of Corinth. He talks about in one corinthians twelve six, also about how the gifts of the spirit has been given to empower everyone, all people. Each person is given a gift and then we see people who are not apostles, not disciples of the twelve, say, who are still used powerfully by the Holy Spirit. I think of Stephen, who it's written how great signs and wonders was done through him. In acts six eight. I think about Philip, who he caused out demons and many sick were healed. In acts chapter eight, verse six, Prophet Agabus. We think about Philip's daughters, 72 elders of St. Elin, Luke Tendenne. Okay, there's a lot we can go into, but I just want to highlight that when you just start opening the scriptures and really reading it and looking for it, it's everywhere. There isn't this thing. I think it's so interesting where we say the law of. Many people have said that the law of God is for the twelve tribes and not for anyone else. It's for the native born alone. And. But now, today, what we're saying is the spirit and the spiritual gifts are for the twelve disciples or apostles and not for us. So we're doing the exact same thing to the Holy Spirit that people have done to the truth that was handed down on Mount Sinai to us. And what if this is what God is doing in these days? He's giving us spirit and truth without the excuse of. But God. It was just for those initial, those initial twelve. No, it was always for them to start there and to multiply and go all over the world.

Yeah, well, I mean, what is the Torah? The Torah is the revelation, its instructions in righteousness. And so that revelation of righteousness doesn't just go away, you know, Jesus comes and he lives it, he fulfills it, and then we are called to be in him. Paul uses this terminology so many times in him, in him, that when we're in him, we're connected with his kingship, we're connected with his righteousness. And here's the model that I've tried to share with some of my friends who've wondered, like, well, oh, are you one of those, wait a minute, before you get the pitchfork and, you know, and all that stuff. God, we broke faith in Eden basically by deciding he wasn't righteous because he was. The lie was that he was withholding. And if righteousness is always has an act of giving, and we're sitting there saying, then why is he not letting us come to the tree? That's an act of withholding, which means fundamentally, our doubt was in the righteousness of God. So the greatest way for God to show that he is righteous is to not only give Yeshua, you know, and save us by his righteousness, but then invite us to participate in that righteousness. And God by his very nature is holy and righteous. Therefore, by his nature, he is constantly giving. The Bible says he makes the rain to shine, the sun to shine, and the rain to fall on the wicked and the righteous. Why? Because that's who he is. So the idea that he could stop giving is that he would have to stop being who he is. So the Father gives the Son, that's an act of righteousness. The Son gives his life. That's an act of righteousness. The Son ascends back to the right hand of the Father and receives. The Father gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit, which the Holy Spirit is then given by Jesus to the believers as an act of righteousness. So it's giving, giving, giving, giving, and then it gets to me and then it stops. Is that the equation? So I was given the Holy Spirit through this whole chain of righteousness so I could then come to the conclusion that he's no longer giving, when in fact the empowering and the equipping of the gifts of the spirit. And let's not just limit it to that. The fruit of the spirit is to specifically do righteousness. If he's giving you a word of knowledge, if he's giving you a word of wisdom. Let's talk about the gift of faith. You know, sometimes we need that one person in the crowd to be the Moses that says, we can do this, or the Joshua or the Caleb. You know, sometimes we need that person to have that little extra from God that says, hey, I need a leader right now. Here's the faith. Do it. And I mean, I just. I just don't understand. I don't want to live in a world without that. I don't want to live in a world where Satan continues to get to do his thing. But God's power had a expiration date. I just don't believe that. Now, having said that, let's remember that people have been hurt, and they've been hurt because men and women have used the gifts for their own pocketbook, for their own ego, for their own self aggrandizement. And so as we move deeper and deeper and closer and closer to the return of the Lord, deeper in the last days, closer to the return of the Lord, I think the revival that needs to happen in the body of Christ is not a blank check. I don't write a blank check to anybody that tells me, oh, I'm doing this in the power of the Holy Spirit. Okay, but you have to understand that one of the gifts of the spirit is discerning the spirits, and by your fruit you'll know them. I think part of the reason things like that run amok in the american church is because we grew up, a generation of us grew up believing that the highest moral good was to never put someone in an awkward situation, that avoiding awkwardness was the greatest morality. Well, it's awkward to tell a brother or sister, hey, the Bible says that you're not supposed to be doing that in this environment. You're not in submission with the leaders of the body of Christ. You're running rogue care. You're going lone ranger. We have to grow up and be mature enough to operate in those gifts because that's also a functioning of the gifts of the spirit, which, that's the irony. That part of the functioning of the gifts of the Holy Spirit protects us from false manifestations of the Spirit.

Oh, yeah. I mean, if you think about it, in Genesis when we first read about the Holy Spirit, where the Spirit is hovering over the water and he's bringing order from chaos. Right? We see when in the exodus when the sea is being split, that is also a picture of how Israel is now leaving behind Egypt. So the Holy Spirit is making a drawing a line in the sand, if you will, by splitting the sea and saying, now is the time to choose. You're going to go forward into this. You're going to stay back. So he loves order. He wants to bring order. And perhaps it's in this, if I might call it reformation of truth that we are seeing right now, which gives us this hunger for truth and order biblically, hopefully, right, biblical order. And now when we earnestly desire the gifts and the Holy Spirit, now we can correctly implement that order. But I think this is also now the other danger is a lot of people, they think of order and they paint order with their own brushes, what that looks like. So I think we have to be careful also with bringing in order according to how Paul gives it in his protocols that he writes to his churches. I think you mentioned prophets. Prophets were subject to prophets. Paul also talks about speaking in tongues. If you're in a church environment, speak. But then let there be an interpreter, right? Let there be one to interpret one at a time. You know, these things so that there's not chaos, that there's not confusion. They're important. And, and I think, Brent, that's maybe, maybe a little later you can share with us a little bit about, you know, any advice you can give any, any leaders who, who may want to create a facilitate environment like that. But yeah, I digress.

Well I have one that I would just as far as I deeply appreciate Doctor Sam storms. Sam and I are not on the same page theologically as far as Calvinism, I'm not a calvinist, but he has written a book for instance on the Holy Spirit, on speaking in tongues and I read through it and I so much appreciated the balance between like absolutely believing in the possibility and the ongoing presence of that gifting, but it absolutely having to be done in the construct of submission to the leadership of the church. And I think that's been the problem with so many is that we have seen what we saw on tv. The flashpoint for so many christians who, you know, haven't experienced the gifts is that the speaking in tongues is the stumbling block for them because of they see it on tv and they see the way it's manifest on tv and especially when they were told, well you don't have the Holy Spirit if you don't do this. When Paul says not everybody has the same gift. So I mean you have something like that and it's just really easy to just walk away completely. And you know, what I always tell people is, look, I'm not, I don't care about the church down here on my right that is abusing the gifts and ignoring the word. And I don't care about the church down here that is abusing the word by ignoring the gifts. You know, I'm not impressed by either one. I want to know what Paul wrote, I want to know what Jesus taught and that's what I want. I'm not trying, I don't want, I'm not advocating for what you saw on tv in the seventies and eighties. I'm advocating for a church that is actively involved in the pursuit of the kingdom of God and his righteousness. And you're not going to walk with a supernatural king and not experience supernatural realities happening in your life. And if speaking in tongues isn't one of them, fine. But I mean, you know, I had made a note that I wanted to bring this up, that I love Jesus response in Matthew eleven, when John the Baptist, some of his disciples go to him, are sent to him to ask, are you the one or should we expect another? And Jesus says, well, go back and tell them what you see. And basically what he tells them is the blind receive their sight, the lame walk lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear and the dead are raised up. Wow, that's amazing. Wait a minute, stop. The sentence isn't over. And the poor have good news to preach to them. That is a phenomenal thing to add to that list, because that list is phenomenal. And you're going to, you know, the dead are raised, people are healed. Oh, and by the way, the poor are having the gospel preached to them.

It's in the same category.

Jesus sends that back and says, that's a miracle. And you have to understand, especially in the Gospel of Matthew, almost everything that's being done in the Gospel of Matthew is a juxtaposition to the corruption of the scribes and the Pharisees, their interpretations, their applications, the way they interacted with the masses. And so for him to highlight that and then refer to the passages in Isaiah about how the messiah would come, I think we need to make sure that we understand that believing in the gifts of the Holy Spirit isn't just about believing and speaking in tongues. It's about a life that is so transformed that I don't run around just looking for people who look like me, talk like me, and have a similar bank account as I do to share the gospel with. That's all that selfishness that's wrapped up in that. And that's why I love that Jesus added that at the end, because the Holy Spirit, every one of those gifts are given so that we can equip, to equip the body and empower the body. And sometimes that is equipping for me to minister to somebody else. And sometimes that's empowering me to stand up to the onslaught of what's coming at me from my own life, from my own flesh. And this is, I know we're kind of jumping on our own, but back to the speaking in tongues thing, this is one of the things that changed my position on that, is that you can't juxtapose something. If you don't have two somethings to juxtapose, you can't juxtapose with one something. So if Paul's going to talk about a type of tongues that is manifested in the assembly, that requires a revelation, and he's going to juxtapose that to a different kind of tongues that manifest in private, that doesn't need a revelation, well, you've got to have both to juxtapose them. And so I really began thinking about, so what is that? What is the benefit there? Because Paul then also says that that private time with the Lord, with that language is for edifying you. Now, because of my background, I grew up going, oh, well, that's selfish. Now, wait a minute, if there is a. If there is a gift, like a private speaking in tongues language, where the person, God doesn't even engage your mind, it's because. Yes. What benefit would that be? What benefit would that be?

Yeah, absolutely. And that's a good being in the.

Presence of the Lord at that level and just letting the Lord, your spirit, and his spirit do their things, and you just kind of get to be a spectator and to be.

To be fair. On the other hand, too, to just pray in your native tongue, English, is that not to edify yourself? Is that not to get yourself out of the way at times for the Lord to move? Is that not for you to get your flesh to shut down so you can hear the Lord? You know, we're praying for our sake, not for God's sake.

Why do we go to Bible study? Why do we go to worship services? Why do we listen to christians radio stations? Is that not an act of edifying ourselves, to strengthen us so that we can be the person we're called to be? And that's. And you're right. This spot on. That's exactly what my point is, that, you know, but again, nothing searched for usually results in nothing being found. And the. The bigger question is not, why don't we see more manifestations of the Holy Spirit? The bigger question is, why not? And I think the answer is because we have this culturalized selfishness that we. Until we're ready, we say we want revival, but until we allow ourselves to be confronted with that narcissism, with that self centeredness, that selfish appetite, with the fact that, you know, having to look back at things that you thought you were doing for the glory of God. And really it was all about you. Been there. No preacher wants to stand up and stink. No worship leader wants to, you know, go off key. I mean, we all want. I don't want this interview, you know, I don't want people to look at the rise on fire ministry and go, well, man, you know, Petey brings a lot of good guys on there, but that guy, wow, he's stunked up.

I don't want that.

Right? I want, you know, but. But you have to, like, shove that flesh down and say, shut up. That's not why I'm here.

Right.

It's about the Holy Spirit, you giving yourself over to his will and not yours. And now let me just throw this out as an illustration. That may mean you may have to wait a while until that manifests, because you, you know, you start asking for stuff. Normally the first time we start asking for something. It is a mess of wrong motives, and it takes time for us to work through that. And so the Lord is patient and kind, and, you know, maybe the first thing you do is you start really kind of like, okay, lord, this selfishness, my motives, let's start there. And then let me just let you know I'm ready to be used.

As we start concluding here tonight, for anyone who's now listening to this, and they are in a place where they want to open their heart towards whatever the gift is that the father has for them. Could you lead us in a prayer for that as well as, you know, any, any concluding thoughts you may want to share on?

Well, just as far as a concluding thought, it would just be, I would encourage everybody, pastors, believers, whoever, to go back and read the sermon on the mount and read it with the eyes and the ears of that. This is a message that is talking about a kingdom of righteousness, a kingdom of people who are going to be so different than their scribes and their religious leaders and their, their false interpretations and applications, that these are going to be a people. And Jesus starts in that sermon by showing their misinterpretations of the Torah, and he just goes on and even calls out the way they pray, and it's all about them. And the hardest thing for us, my friends, is to come to the place where we're willing to look in the mirror of God's word and be honest about who's staring back at us. Am I that person now? I'm going to tell you right now, I'm not telling you this from an ivory tower. Like, hey, I figured all this out. You ought to come be like me. I'm telling you this because I had still have to deal with the carnality of my own idolatry of self. And revival will come when we repent of that idolatry, and it will come when we begin to pursue the things that he has for us in the kingdom instead of the things of this world. To get to that place, we have to be in that place where we're ready to hear the truth about ourselves and just be ready. I mean, one of the most dynamic, internal, audible things the Lord ever said to me in the nineties was, Brent, you don't trust me. And he was right. Because when you're in it, so much for you, you're trusting you, you're trusting what you can do. And so to the listeners and the viewers, I would just say, come to terms with that and understand that that selfish life is not the selfless. It's not the crucified life that Jesus calls us to, you know? And it's that crucified life. That's where the fruit of the spirit grows. That's where the gifts of the spirit manifest not in our strength, but in our weakness. So let me just. Let me just pray for all of us. Abba Father, I come to you. B'shem yeshua hamashiach in the name of Jesus, the messiah. And, Lord, I'm thankful, genuinely grateful for Petey and his wife and rise on fire and their passion to encourage people to pursue what you have called us to pursue. Lord, I just pray that for every heart that is feeling like, well, am I allowed to ask for something that seems like it would be a blessing to me? Lord, the answer is yes, as long as that blessing is going to be used to bless others. Father, I pray for those who are coming to terms with the selfishness, the carnality, however it manifests in their own life, whether it's manifesting through sexual immorality or just greediness or a lack of generosity or a critical spirit, whatever it may be. Father, open their eyes and their heart to hear the truth and understand that that truth isn't being shared with them by you to condemn, but to conform them to the image of your son and father, help them to fight, especially those who are in bondage, to fear and insecurity. Things that we cling to, things that we hold on to, even though we say we hate them, but we hold on to them because they define us. And I just pray for those people that they would let those things so that they could be defined by being in Christ and being the Holy Spirit being found in them. And so, Father, I pray for those who. Who are beginning that journey. Maybe this will be a journey that begins with this very message, that this will be the first time that they consider what seeking first the kingdom of God and his righteousness means. That is the first time they're going to consider pursuing what you have to give them in the same way the world pursues them to overtake and persecute them. Father, give us a passion to receive what you have given us for the sake of the body of Christ and to minister to others. And so, Father, I pray especially for those who are starting that journey, who may have some painful moments and things they have to deal with, that your spirit. Some of the very first manifestations of the power of your holy spirit would come in the healing of those hurts and those things that cause us to become so self centered. And Father, for those who are earnestly and humbly and genuinely seeking you in this hour because they want to be used. Lord, I pray that you would pass pour out a spirit of wisdom and knowledge in the revelation of Jesus. I pray that everything that Paul prayed in ephesians 117 and 18 would come true in their life and that it would come true by the manifestation of your spirit working through them for the glory of Christ. I pray that you would give them words of wisdom and knowledge when they are needed to minister. Father, I pray that you would raise up people in moments where faith is needed, that you would give that gift of faith, faith and faithfulness. I pray that you would give leaders, especially the gift of discernment and testing of spirits as they bear the responsibility to keep us in line with sound doctrine. Father, I pray for those who have manifested the gift of the Holy Spirit in terms of speaking in tongues. Lord, that they would, we would certainly not forbid that. But Father, that even if those people who are already ministering or manifesting that gift, that even they would be willing to take time and say, Lord, am I, am I, am I doing this for you or am I doing this for me? Lord, because I would want them to take that experience to make it even more humbling, more meaningful, more empowering and equipping in their life than it is. And Father, fill them and use them. So, Father, I pray that you would continue to use rise on fire to bring a balanced and biblical message that we can pursue and seek what you have already promised to give. And that we would not listen to the voices of those who say it's over and those who say it's overdone. Father, that we would not be cessationists, neither would we be sensationalist, but we would be biblical believers, simply filled by the Holy Spirit, seen each and every day as not just another drudge day trying to fight against sin, but an opportunity to go forth and do righteousness not in our own power, but filled with the Holy Spirit. I pray for this father, I look forward to hearing the testimonies of those who begin to experience your gifts and begin to allow your fruit, the fruit of the spirit, to manifest their character and their talk and their walk and all that they do. And we will be careful to give you all the glory. I pray these things in the mighty name of Yeshua the messiah. Amen.

Amen and amen. Thank you so much brain, for a beautiful prayer. I appreciate that. Guys, listen to what he prayed. Seek the Lord, ask knock as Yeshua said, and the door will be open to you. But knock believing, having faith that he is a father in heaven who wants to give good gifts to his children. He's not gonna give you a snake when you ask for bread. I mean, guys, I also wanted to just share with you, if you don't know. Next week we're gonna do our trumpets online conference October 2 and 07:30 p.m. eastern time. As the Lord permits, I would like for you to consider joining us for free. If you want to be reminded, you can text Yeshua 29 4000. Bring your friends, bring your family, and let's celebrate our Lord and the anticipation of that second coming. So brain, thank you so much for joining me, brother. It's such an honor to have you with us. Guys. I'm going to put links to his ministries as well in the description of this video if you wanted to check that out. Thank you for joining me and we can't wait to see you in the next one. Many blessings to you. Angelo.